On the Mark: Dr. Mahnaz Moallem

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Mark Ginsberg: Welcome to On the Mark where we have candid conversations about meaningful and consequential work happening here at Towson University. I'm Mark Ginsberg. It's my honor to serve as president of Towson University, located, of course, in Towson, Maryland. Now in this podcast, we're introducing you to members of our university community who are engaged in high impact teaching, research, and student success practices. 

Today we're joined by a scholar, an educator, and an innovator whose work sits at the intersection of learning science and real-world classroom impact. Pleased to be joined by Dr. Mahnaz Moallem. Mahnaz serves as professor and also chair of our Department of Learning Technologies, Design, and School Library Media here in the College of Education at Towson University. Her research explores how we can intentionally use emerging technology as well as immersive virtual reality to create better learning environments, especially in the STEM fields. She has more than three decades of experience preparing P-12 educators, holds a PhD in Instructional System Design and Learning Systems from Florida State University. Mahnaz, thank you for joining me today. Pleasure to have you with us and pleasure to be On the Mark with you. So, tell us a little bit first about what drew you to this really exciting and innovative field. Learning technologies is exploding, and you were there right near the beginning of it. So, tell us a little bit about how you gravitated into this particular field. 

Motivation, Emotion and Engagement in Learning

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes, I came to the learning design and learning sciences from an experience of an educator and a special education teacher and then becoming an educators in Teacher Education program. It provided me a very good exposure to learning sciences, theories, and principles that could be easily translate into developing enhanced learning environment for a student. So, it provided me with a lot of opportunities. And then, obviously, lately more into technology, emerging technology, mediated learning. So, at the beginning, technology was more specific with the techniques that we used with regard to improving learning. But as the technology advanced, then learning technologies became a mediated environment for improving education. 

Mark Ginsberg: But the technology is not only of learning, but generally the technologies that we use every day are just exploding in their range, as well as their impact, and also really what they are. And so, as you define this concept of learning design, how do you see it in this context of the rapidly changing both educational landscape, but also technological landscape? 

Mahnaz Moallem: I think that the learning science side of it is foundational. So, we learn how learning happens, how a student respond to different things, and what are the components of learning, including cognitive, social, emotional, and all aspects of learning – the affective domain, motivation, and other issues. So, those stay pretty much based on the evidence that we gather. As the research obviously expands, the neuroscience included in learning sciences, so we basically use a lot of learning principles, and then we translate them into how learning environment, excuse me, can be developed so that we would improve learning. For example, the issue of cognitive load is a principle in learning sciences. 

Mark Ginsberg: Tell us what cognitive load is, as you were going to talk about that. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Cognitive load is when you use too many different things during the learning process, and many of them are extraneous, not necessarily directly related to learning, and that loads the human mind so that they cannot specifically focus on the component that is required for learning. So, if that's the principle within the cognitive science, how do you translate that to the learning environment? For example, if we are improving a student's understanding of a specific concept, that has to happen. And then other extraneous issues should be removed so that student can pay direct attention to the item that is the focus of learning. And then there are very many principles similar to that that we would use, and then we translate them into designing an environment that is more appropriate for learning. 

Mark Ginsberg: So, it also though, it sounds like it's attentive to not just the cognitive side of learning, the intellectual side of learning, but also as you were saying, the social and emotional side...

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes.

Mark Ginsberg: ...and maybe some of the other elements that are taking, things that are going on in a person's life that can either...

Mahnaz Moallem: Exactly. 

Mark Ginsberg: ...maximize or interfere with learning.

Mahnaz Moallem: Exactly. Particularly motivation...

Mark Ginsberg: Motivation would be for sure.

Mahnaz Moallem: ...empathy, emotion because they are not separated from cognition. So, at least learning sciences showed us that different aspects of learning – cognitive, social, and emotional – they're all intertwined, and you cannot separate one from the other. So, we have to include those into the process of learning. For example, we know that student interest and emotion impacts learning. So, that's why when we set up the learning environment, we ensure that student motivation is explored ahead of time so that we are matching the learning environment with the area of the student interest, their motivation, their value system even, to ensure that the learning occurs. 

Mark Ginsberg: So, Motivation is fundamental...

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes.

Mark Ginsberg: ...it would seem to effective learning. And it would seem that by inference, that effective teaching also is related to trying to understand motivational theory and being good motivating practices in a sense. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Exactly.

Mark Ginsberg: So, it sounds like, and I'm just wanting to kind of infer this from what you're saying, that the mesh, if you will, or the blend of learning technologies and learning science is a particularly powerful combination. 

Mahnaz Moallem: For example, motivation, when you bring that to the technology-mediated learning environment, I think that can help us, the technology can help us improve that. For example, you can provide immediate feedback to a student that increases student motivation level. Or you can use scenarios, simulation. 

Mark Ginsberg: Very important, it would seem.

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes. In an environment that a student will be interested and be engaged more. So, technology can provide some opportunities that otherwise it would be difficult to create. For example, in the immersive learning environment that I've been studying.

Mark Ginsberg: You know I want to talk about that with you as well.

Mahnaz Moallem: That's a technology. 

Mark Ginsberg: Highly motivating environment. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Right. I think within that environment, creating a space that a student will immerse in an environment that otherwise would be very difficult to create, and then learn in that environment. So, I think technology provides that opportunity. Or online learning, for example. That provides another opportunity for students to have self-directed environment for learning. 

Mark Ginsberg: So, you're really shifting the context, if you will. You're providing a context that's both motivating, at the same time, informative and engaging. That's the other piece that I hear you talking about. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes. I think engagement is a main issue. We know that the learning science came to the point that engagement is a key to learning. So, to improve engagement, then we have to think of what would we offer to a student so that they would be engaged more. 

Problem-Based and Inquiry-Based Learning

Mark Ginsberg: Well, engagement is a topic that I'm really interested in, I wonder what you're thinking is, that when we think about contemporary education, we think about pedagogy in today's both our P-12 environment, also in our higher education environment, but frankly also in our corporate environments where we're training or retraining or skill development or professional development. How do you see this balance between cognitive learning by hearing versus learning by doing, the active problem project-based learning and the pedagogies that might be considered part of that domain? 

Mahnaz Moallem: That's exactly how I landed in the pedagogy of problem-based learning and critical thinking, and that's my specific area of research. Because I figured out that until you put a student in a situation that they need to solve a problem, and the problem is connected to the real-world environment, it would be hard to engage them because then the interest is not necessarily established for them. So, that's how I started looking at the pedagogy of problem-based learning, project-based learning, particularly in STEM field, to engage a student more in the learning environment. So, it's starting with a scenario that is very similar to the real-world environment. 

Mark Ginsberg: Yeah. And I think some of the data in pedagogy and the field of learning science is telling us that these kinds of active learning approaches are really beneficial for students' learning. And in fact, one of the foremost educators that I've read recently, Richard Mayer, was recently quoted as saying, "The design of learning experiences must begin, not can begin, but must begin with understanding how people learn and with the capabilities of the latest technology then being blended with that." But what Mayer is saying, I think, and you're amplifying in your comments, is that we need to first understand how it is that people acquire knowledge and learn how to use that knowledge. 

Mahnaz Moallem: I think when students engage in a problem, indeed, it would help them by exploring the problem space. They could come to the areas that they do not know enough. So, it would prompt them to engage in prior knowledge that they are missing. But at the same time, I think the issue of a scaffolding or guided practice is becoming critical, and that's the area that I spend quality time on looking at, scaffolding and self-regulation within students' practice, so that they can start looking and seeing what is it that they are missing that they need to learn. And then as the teacher would scaffold the student or guide a student by asking more questions, they become more aware of the areas that they would have to go and explore. But of course, the critical issue is how you prepare educators to be able to ask questions rather than providing answers. So, I think that's a critical skill set that teachers need to have to be able to prompt a student with more question and helping them explore more. So, that requires a lot of scaffolding and guiding. 

Mark Ginsberg: Inquiry-based learning. And my belief is that teaching from that perspective, as you say, requires not only a different set of skills, but a very well-refined set of skills to be able to ask those kinds of questions.

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes.

Adaptive Learning Technology and Human-Centered AI

Mark Ginsberg: Here in our College of Education, where you've been a teacher educator for many years, that's one of the models that you're teaching your students to be able to implement in their classrooms. Talk a little bit about technology because that's an area of your research and area of your practice. And technology has, I guess, accelerated some of the ways that we're doing problem-based learning or engaged inquiry-based approaches. What are some of the latest in some of the technologies that have the most promise in adapting the learning experience to be more inquiry based? 

Mahnaz Moallem: I think primarily, the technology within the computing environment.

Mark Ginsberg: Uh-huh.

Mahnaz Moallem: That has impacted our learning environment pretty much, you know, the providing all the learning materials that are scaffolded and personalized to learners' capabilities and interest and motivation so that they can explore things on their own. That technology afforded us to do that. And now with the learning analytics, we are capable of analyzing the learners ahead of time or through many different data to have a better understanding of who the learners are so that we can adapt our learning and instruction to their needs. So, I think that's a technology that helped us greatly. 

Mark Ginsberg: Yes.

Mahnaz Moallem: Adaptive learning environment, for example. Once a student has started doing and experiencing, then we have to be able to adapt our assessment of their learning to where they are rather than just focusing on a...or summative process of that. 

Mark Ginsberg: Yeah. Yeah, right.

Mahnaz Moallem: So, I think that's also technology is making us very much capable of doing that. And now with the artificial intelligence, that brings computing. 

Mark Ginsberg: Yeah, I'm glad you raised that. I was going to ask you about AI and how that relates to all this. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes. I think that computing environment in general, for a student understand what the computing environment is, I think that needs to be part of the basic skills that our educators should have. For example, where the data is coming from, what is data science, and how artificial intelligence is gaining its understanding of data. So, I think these are the issues that they have not been in our field before, but technology making it possible because we're now gathering data from many different sources. Now we have to see where this data are coming from, what are the biases associated with them, so that the specific use of it is appropriate and ethical and it's addressing all kinds of security issues, privacy issues. 

Mark Ginsberg: Yeah, right.

Mahnaz Moallem: So, a lot of new areas are coming to the field of learning design that has not been before, both with the possibilities and at the same time challenges. 

Mark Ginsberg: Yet and AI has the opportunity to amplify, but I think what you're saying is a good teacher won't be replaced by AI but will be able to be augmented or their work leveraged, and that's really what you're saying. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes, we translate that into human-centered AI. 

Mark Ginsberg: Human-centered AI.

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes.

Mark Ginsberg: Tell us about that. 

Mahnaz Moallem: It's that we leave all the judgment and evaluation to the human and then use AI as an augmented tool to help the human instructor to achieve what they need to achieve. So, in other words, if students are supposed to use a specific tool, this is the human who decides how, when, and at what point they're going to have to use it to inform them. For example, if they're using an intelligent tutoring system, it's not that we're pushing a student to do that on their own, but the human instructor would decide how they should be using this tutoring so that they would help them by indicating what issues they need to focus on, by looking at the analytic data, pushing them to specific personalized learning strategies. So, we believe that at any point, a human instructor would have to be in charge of judgment and decision. 

Mark Ginsberg: So, using technology, not hiding it, but also not marginalizing the importance of the teacher. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Exactly. 

Virtual Reality as a Transformative Teaching Tool

Mark Ginsberg: Yeah, the teacher. So, let's talk about another area that I know you've been involved in and you're very passionate about, and it's some of the emerging technologies. I'm really curious. I heard that you're doing some work in the VR space, in the virtual reality space. Tell us about that in Teacher Education and how that fits with all of what we've been talking about so far. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes, we established Virtual Reality, Innovative Learning Virtual Reality, at the College of Education in 2022. So, I think that's with the new technologies within the immersive virtual reality, and then the pricing being so available and affordable now, the environment is providing a promising environment for many different areas, I think. I don't get into other areas that have been has been shown to be very effective, like training or health or other areas. But in education, what I specifically focus on to test the environment was this immersive virtual reality to improve cultural sensitivity because cultural sensitivity has big components in empathy and affective learning. 

Mark Ginsberg: Empathy and affective learning, the feeling state. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Affective learning.

Mark Ginsberg: The feeling state.

Mahnaz Moallem: Exactly. Because cognitive side of it, we've been able to address that in Teacher Education because we can give a student information, we can have them look at different cases, different scenario. 

Mark Ginsberg: That's the easy part. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes, but the increasing empathy and passion and understanding of various perspective and individual beliefs and norms, very difficult to establish. Of course, we've had strategies such as Student Abroad. So, we took a student to different places, different culture, but they are costly, and not all students can experience that. But virtual reality is a tool that can easily reproduce this real-world environment or even imaginary environment in a 3-D space that once you put the headset on, you're basically blocking the physical environment, and then the brain thinks that they are in that virtual environment and separated from physical. So, whatever they see, it's they are with it. They are in it. So, creating that environment with the different cultural perspective would help a student to see and feel what person with a different cultural background would feel and see. So, that improves their empathy, openness, understanding, in addition to all those cognitive areas. So, I think that was my focus. I wanted to see if we can improve that side of the Teacher Education student. 

Mark Ginsberg: I can say from a personal experience, having experienced virtual reality of a of a classroom environment, that you're absolutely right. It takes literally a matter of seconds until you feel like you're in the environment. And in some ways, education's come a little bit late to the party, that other fields have used simulated environments for a long time. It strikes me, it's also a safe context, that you don't have to be perfect. You can learn from the experience without creating difficulty or problems for others. It's safe. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Exactly.

Mark Ginsberg: My guess is for classroom teacher preparation, that too is the case. It's a safe environment to be practicing and to be learning. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes, I think it's a very low-stake environment because student...

Mark Ginsberg: Low stakes.

Mahnaz Moallem: ...can practice, can respond to, and then come back and reflect on what happened to them and what they feel. 

Mark Ginsberg: And you can process it with them as an educator.

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Mark Ginsberg: Without having the direct human contact but having the simulated human contact. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes. 

Mark Ginsberg: Which feels very real, as you said. 

Mahnaz Moallem: And that's exactly what the students who experienced that intervention said that it was safe for them to be in a place of another individual with a different culture to see where they are coming from. It was amazing. We collected both quantitative and qualitative data.

Mark Ginsberg: Yeah. I'm wondering what your data and your research are telling you.

Mahnaz Moallem: It was a systematic approach, but we created an environment that we would collect quantitative data with the scales that we use to assess their cultural sensitivity. The quantitative data showed that they definitely improved their, significantly improved their openness, their empathy, their passion, their understanding. And then the qualitative data was amazing. How is Sudan? Because it was an intervention that we had about seven lessons that they had to go through to look at different culture in a 3-D environment, putting headset on, and that, it showed how they started thinking very differently from the beginning to the end. So, at the end, they placed themselves very much in the other people experience. They show that they understand at a much deeper level what everyone felt. So, definitely our experiment shows promise for using this technology to improve areas that we have a hard time improving. 

Mark Ginsberg: I was going to ask you that about how students are responding to it. It sounds like they respond very positively. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes. 

Mark Ginsberg: But even their positive personal response is almost transcended by their learning experience. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes.

Mark Ginsberg: Interesting. These technologies, and you've been involved with it really from its start almost, it would almost seem as if they have not only emerged, but the sophistication and I guess the way in which they are taking place has gotten better and better and better. What's the trend line? What's happening in that field and where's it headed? 

Mahnaz Moallem: I think they started with a really expensive headset and not much, obviously, material to experience with. So, it was limitation of both equipment and the content that you needed to have within this environment. But as we moved through the advancement of it, the headsets are now very sophisticated. We're using Meta Quest, which is a very usable kind of headset. So, it's not too bulky. It's very focused. The 3D environment is from a user experience, perspective is much, much real compared to what they had before. In addition to that, the pricing dropped tremendously. So, now everyone is able to afford that. And indeed, the schools have been using it. 

Mark Ginsberg: Sure. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Or at least acquiring it. But whether the teachers were trained or provided support to be able to use that appropriately, that's a different issue. 

Mark Ginsberg: So, it sounds like it's become more accessible to people. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes, definitely. 

Mark Ginsberg: And people have learned how to use it. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Very much.

Mark Ginsberg: Not replacing teaching but augmenting or leveraging teaching. What are barriers that are existing? Because I would think to be able to teach using immersive technologies does require a set of skills that you're teaching your students in your learning design program but are skills that students and teachers and school systems need to integrate within their systems. 

Mahnaz Moallem: I think there is the learning curve for our educators. Our younger generation, they are kind of comfortable with that. For example, when we did the Teacher Education candidate, when we brought them for the experiment, I think it took them about an hour and a half to completely get comfortable with the headset and the environment. But of course, we had the facilitator to support them, but they really didn't need that much. We're using now the virtual reality for our girls' coding club with a high school group, and they come in and they are high school girls, and they didn't have much of the problem using the equipment and maneuvering in the virtual environment. But for our Teacher Education faculty, that's a learning curve because they need to get comfortable with the technology, plus the need for having the content that is appropriate in the environment. So, we're lacking a lot of content that is properly designed for the environment. So that these two are barriers, so they're not much of the development of that [Inaudible 00:27:02]. 

Mark Ginsberg: Yeah. And going back to what we talked about earlier about inquiry-based approaches, I'm almost sensing that the immersive technologies give you the opportunity to design and create learning environments that are more inquiry based. In other words, I know one of the leading organizations is the emerging learning design community that exists. One of their mottoes is that education, the age of immersion, is about designing moments that matter, not just lessons that matter. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Exactly. That's what we're trying to help our doctoral student that are focusing on learning design, to learn how to create that environment because as you said, the content is not accessible right now. There are content related to high school biology, for example. We have a lot of virtual simulation in biology that you could put your headset and you explore a lot of things. There are virtual laboratories that are used for the science environment, even in mathematics. We have acquired some of those applications for STEM and mathematics, physics. These are the areas that are very difficult, conceptually very difficult for the students, but then when they put the headset and actually practice that...

Mark Ginsberg: Yes, yes.

Mahnaz Moallem: They have a much better understanding. And lately, we also practice the machine learning. 

Mark Ginsberg: Yes. 

Mahnaz Moallem: And had girls really go into it and see how machine learns. So, it was much more involved learning experience. 

Broadening Access Through STEM Enrichment

Mark Ginsberg: Let me ask you about one other issue, we only have a few minutes left, but I know it's another area that you've been doing research on and are interested in. It's the issue of gender disparities, particularly in the STEM fields, and how some of the newer learning technologies that you have both researched and designed and applied can assist with creating greater equality, gender equality in some of these emerging fields, particularly the STEM and computer science, cybersecurity, and fields that are so important to our future. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes, I think I've always been interested. I think I've worked in the field of STEM quite a bit with improving both mathematics and science learning for K-12 education. So, I had interest in that. But research consistently showing that the disparity, gender disparity in a STEM field, particularly in the area of computing, AI, and cybersecurity recently. So, the absence of women in these areas is tremendous. 

Mark Ginsberg: Yes. 

Mahnaz Moallem: It shows that there is a urgent need to remove this or reduce this disparity. So, for that interest, research shows that there are obviously many solutions, but one of the solutions that shows that it reduces this age disparity, particularly in the area of biases, role model, of being able to have this experience at the early ages, is the enrichment program, after-school enrichment program. 

Mark Ginsberg: Yes. 

Mahnaz Moallem: So, that shows that that significantly reduces the age and race disparity. 

Mark Ginsberg: And again, that program is about learning by doing. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes. So, that's why we started creating this Girls Computing, AI, and Cybersecurity Club. We started with a little support from the TU Foundation and then established the club. We brought kids to campus, but then I received, I was fortunate to receive USM Elkinson Professorship Award... 

Mark Ginsberg: That's right. 

Mahnaz Moallem: ...that provided more support. 

Mark Ginsberg: Congratulations, that's a great award.

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes.

Mark Ginsberg: How old are the girls that are coming? 

Mahnaz Moallem: We started only with elementary and middle grade. 

Mark Ginsberg: I see, elementary age. That's what I was wondering about.

Mahnaz Moallem: But then with the Elkinson project support, now we have expanded that to all ages. We bring young kids age of four to six, and so we have a group of four to six young girls that are learning about computing, computational thinking, cybersecurity, artificial intelligence. And then we have elementary and middle age group.

Mark Ginsberg: How fabulous.

Mahnaz Moallem: And they have another faculty that are working with them. And then we created age-appropriate curriculum in all these three areas. And then we have high school group that we have more advanced computing and cybersecurity issues for the girls. 

Mark Ginsberg: So, it's across the spectrum.

Mahnaz Moallem: So, we have three groups. They come on campus every other Saturday from 10:00 to 12:00, and we have faculty of the College of Education that are trained, we have faculty at the Early Education who's pretty much trained in the area of technology, and then we have another faculty who has computer science background teaching our elementary and middle grades. 

Mark Ginsberg: Well, that's fabulous. That's fabulous. And a great adaptation of all of what we've been talking about, but also a great community service to young students and girls here.

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes. It definitely. 

Mark Ginsberg: They're learning about important topics and becoming interested potentially in a career path that many girls have not found access to an opportunity in. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes. We specifically focus on girls that otherwise don't have this opportunity. So, lately, we would like to... We've received a lot of positive responses from parents, and now we're thinking that parents need to be also trained in those areas a little bit. We've heard from them that the young kids go home and even teach their parents about cybersecurity and tell them not to do this or do this or explaining to them what AI works, so they are very, very impressed by that. And some of them even volunteered to work at the club so that they can learn about that. The other aspect of our club is that we're bringing our Teacher Education candidate to the club as a teaching assistant. So, for each group, we have three Teacher Education...

Mark Ginsberg: So, it's a training experience as well.

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes. Teacher Education candidate that work as a teaching assistant with the faculty. They not only learn these areas themselves, but they also learn how to teach them. And also it has become a, really, research hub for our faculty of the College of Education and also our doctoral student. Many of them are coming to the club to study different aspects of learning. So, it's been a very fascinating experience. 

Mark Ginsberg: Well, that's fabulous. So, the work you're doing, and as we conclude the conversation, is both a service to the community, a great experience for these young girls who are participating, it's a training experience for our students, and also a laboratory, kind of a living learning laboratory for our faculty and our students conducting research. The work that you're doing is both fascinating, it's of high impact, and important consequence. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Thank you.

Mark Ginsberg: I'm so pleased to learn about it and know that our students in our College of Education are learning to be educators, not only in the classic sense, but perhaps even more importantly, in the contemporary sense. 

Mahnaz Moallem: Yes. 

Mark Ginsberg: Learning the newer technologies, and you and your colleagues are designing some of those emergent and immersive technologies that are so important to the future of our society, as we know education is so important for all of our communities. So, let me thank you very much for joining us, Dr. Mahnaz Moallem, here at TU. Your work is fascinating, high impact, and important consequence. Thank you for joining us. And thank you for listening to On The Mark.