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Narrator: You're listening to a Towson University podcast.

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Mark Ginsberg: Welcome to On The Mark, where we have candid conversations about meaningful and consequential work happening here at Towson University. I'm Mark Ginsberg, it's my honor to serve as president of TU, and of course, Towson University is located in Towson, Maryland, and is a unit of the University System of Maryland. And on this podcast, we're introducing you to members of our university community who are engaged in high-impact teaching, research, and student success practices.

I'm very pleased today to be joined by a distinguished public servant, a fierce advocate for Marylanders, and an important part now of our Towson University community, Senator Ben Cardin. Senator Cardin is a third-generation Marylander who has dedicated his life to public service, having served as an elected leader for 58 years. Incredible. Senator Cardin retired from the United States Senate after serving three terms in the Senate, that is for 18 years from 2007 to 2025. And prior to his election to the U.S. Senate, he had served 20 years in the United States House of Representatives, representing Maryland's 3rd Congressional District. Prior to his election to the House, he served in the Maryland House of Delegates for 20 years, from 1967 to 1987, but was also serving as its speaker from 1979 to 1987. And when he was elected speaker at age 35, he was the youngest elected Speaker of the House in Maryland's history.

Senator Cardin is a graduate of the University of Pittsburgh and the University of Maryland School of Law, and he and his wife, Myrna Cardin, who is a Towson University alum and former chair of TU's Board of Visitors, have just partnered with our university to create the Ben and Myrna Cardin Center for Civic Engagement and Civil Discourse. We're honored to have them as members of our TU community, sharing their expertise with our students and our entire community, and helping to champion informed and respectful dialogue at a time when we need it most.

Senator Cardin, thank you so much for joining us and being on On the Mark, and it's great to have you at Towson, also serving as its speaker from 1979 to 1987. And when he was elected speaker at age 35, he was the youngest elected Speaker of the House in Maryland's history. Senator Cardin is a graduate of the University of Pittsburgh and the University of Maryland School of Law, and he and his wife, Myrna Cardin, who is a Towson University alum and former chair of TU's Board of Visitors, have just partnered with our university to create the Ben and Myrna Cardin Center for Civic Engagement and Civil Discourse. We're honored to have them as members of our TU community, sharing their expertise with our students and our entire community, and helping to champion informed and respectful dialogue at a time when we need it most. Senator Cardin, thank you so much for joining us and being on On the Mark, and it's great to have you at Towson.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Dr. Ginsberg, I want to start by thanking you for giving Myrna and me this opportunity to partner with Towson University with this center. What you're doing here at Towson University in getting young people engaged in responsible civic engagement is what we need to do on our college campuses. So, we're proud to join you in this effort at the center, but I really must tell you, I've been impressed by the programming on campus so that you have informed students who understand what civic engagement's all about and recognize their responsibility to be respectful with people of different views so we can learn from each other.

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Mark Ginsberg: It's such an important part of any university, but I'm so proud that you say that it's a part of our university. So, let me start with a question about civic engagement, and as we begin talking about it, how is it that you define civic engagement, and perhaps evenly just as importantly, how does it matter to a healthy democracy?

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Senator Ben Cardin: Well, I define civic engagement as a responsibility first. I think we all have a responsibility to understand how our system works, to be informed, and to be engaged. We cannot be effective in civic engagement unless we're informed. We need to know about the problems and the issues and how to go about solving a problem, how to go about working for solutions. Engagement, we have to understand what engagement's about. How do you change or make your community stronger? How can you make the environment cleaner? How can you make our neighborhoods safer? How can you make our schools better? That's being informed so that you can get engaged in figuring out how to improve your local school or how to make your community a cleaner community.

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Mark Ginsberg: Right, right.

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Senator Ben Cardin: So, it's a matter of being informed, it's a matter of understanding how to engage, and it's a matter of doing it in a way that's respectful so that you're an advocate, but you respect people with different views and try to learn from people with different views so you can have a more effective strategy when solving a problem.

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Mark Ginsberg: And as you speak about that, civic engagement is one part of the equation for the new center, but civil discourse is the second element. And you're talking about both as you're responding about being engaged as participants in the democracy but doing so in a respectful manner.

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Senator Ben Cardin: And today, civil discourse is certainly being challenged though. We find that people don't want to talk to people who have different views. We see people in the highest offices really using language against their people who have different views that is dangerous and harsh and does not set up the climate where we really respect people with different views. So, yes, I'm glad that the center has an equal dose of civic engagement and civil discourse.

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Mark Ginsberg: I often say that universities are sacred ground, sacred grounds for dialogue. And as you're creating the center, as you've come to the university after 58 years in public service, how do you see the role of the university and the role of colleges generally in preparing young people, not just for civic discourse, but for civic life?

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Senator Ben Cardin: Well, the universities are just a perfect venue.

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Mark Ginsberg: Yeah, I agree.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Universities, your mission is to certainly educate your students so that they can pursue their future careers and be informed as they go through life, but part of your responsibility is to create future leaders. And we want people that are going to be fierce defenders of our democratic system of government, our protections that we build into our system, and will be actively engaged in making sure that we do things right for the people of our country and community and world. And at Towson, you already had that mission in the core programs at Towson University. You have an Office for Civic Engagement and Social Responsibility.

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Mark Ginsberg: Right, that's right.

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Senator Ben Cardin: You have different student organizations that get involved – TU Votes or your Community Conversation. So, you already have the building blocks so that students can be adequately prepared to understand what civic engagement's about, to accept the responsibilities of leadership and the responsibilities of citizenship.

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Mark Ginsberg: That's what I was going to ask you about. It seems as if doing the work that we do here and that you're doing with us here has a very important proximal effect in the life of students today.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Mm-hmm.

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Mark Ginsberg: But my hunch is it has a really long-term effect – the long-term effect of preparing them for citizenry. How do you see that in the work that you're doing, but also the kinds of things you were just talking about?

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Senator Ben Cardin: I think at Towson, you're connecting the dots for your students.

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Mark Ginsberg: Mm-hmm.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Everyone has passion and priorities. A person might be coming to Towson and is concerned about the environment, is really engaged in the challenges of global climate change and really is concerned that we're not doing enough. Well, that could be nurtured here at Towson, that yes, you can make a difference. Each one of us can make a difference. And you can help save our planet. You can help save our environment. But you have to understand how to go about doing it. Civic education's important. Understanding history. What has worked in the past? What have people who've come before you done in order to establish a global commitment to deal with the climate crisis? Those are issues that you need to be informed about. And then you need to develop strategies. What's my best chance to get a change in policy? Well, one way is to form coalitions so you're not alone. Another way is to try to get more support for your position. You can do that by certainly going out and explaining the problem, but also by talking to people who may not agree with you to get a broader coalition for support.

That's how I see a university such as Towson playing a critical role. At the end of the day, you'll have a Towson alum that will become a leader in civic engagement. It may be to save our planet, or it may be for any one of major issues, but it's also a person who understands the way to do that is through protecting our democratic institutions. Because in the experience they're going to get here at Towson, they're able to get policy changes because they can speak out. They have the freedom of speech, the freedom to petition their government, they have the right to criticize without being arrested, that they have the right to organize. All that's taught to them here at Towson and they will be passionate, not only about their specific issue, but about having a government that's responsive to citizens.

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Mark Ginsberg: I've used this quote before, but one of my favorite quotes is from Marian Wright Edelman, that democracy isn't a spectator sport. And that's sort of what you're saying is that we're teaching our students, modeling our students, encouraging our students to be active participants, active participants in their community, active participants in civic life.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Well, Dr. Ginsberg, you're absolutely right about this. Democracy is not a spectator sport. Marian Wright Edelman is absolutely correct about that. And we have not had the participation that we need here in America and globally. There's a reason why over the last several decades, we've seen a decline in countries that are democratic. We've seen a major decline on people who live under democratic rule. So, yes, we need much more participation to protect basic freedom, and in doing that, it gives us the ability to be engaged, to pursue our passion, and to do things that will make our community stronger.

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Mark Ginsberg: I want to ask you about the center and some of the tactics and strategies that you've begun to put into place with the center, and I know one of the things that's very important to you is that people engage in a respectful dialogue, that they have an opportunity to speak and listen. Socrates once said, "The beginning of wisdom is the ability to listen." Talk a little bit about your vision for the center and how it came about.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Well, listening seems to be a dying art. We want to restore its life. We want people to recognize that it's a responsibility to listen, and it's just as important to listen as it is to speak out. That's how we become better informed and that's how we develop strategies that can bring about change. So, yes, we are concerned that the climate today has been to shout rather than to listen and that we really want to get back to the basic ability to respect different views.

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Mark Ginsberg: In preparing for this, I was looking at what some people in history have said about the importance of civic engagement, and going back to the beginning of our country, near the very beginning, Thomas Jefferson, our third US president, was quoted once as saying, "For in a democracy, every citizen, regardless of his interest or her interest in politics, holds office. Every one of us holds office because we have a position of responsibility."

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Senator Ben Cardin: Thomas Jefferson said a lot of things that are very bright.

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Mark Ginsberg: That's a good one.

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Senator Ben Cardin: That really is a good one. And this country is built upon the individual, built upon the people. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said that each one of us can make a difference in someone else's lives, that each one of us is here for a mission to make our community better, and that when we join together, we can bring about change. So, yes, I think if you look at the figures, that's why I say informed constituency is someone who understands civics, understands history, understands economics, understands the arts, and would know who Thomas Jefferson, not only that he was a president of the United States, but the wisdom that he invoked during his presidency. I regret that too many young people today have moved away from that liberal arts education and we lose that balance. There were so many things. We were watching a series today on the Revolutionary War.

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Mark Ginsberg: Great point, yeah.

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Senator Ben Cardin: It tells us the spirit that formed this country, the sacrifices that were made. Why? Because they wanted to be free.

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Mark Ginsberg: Right.

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Senator Ben Cardin: So, let's protect it today. Only way to protect it, Marian Wright Edelman is correct, we got to be engaged.

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Mark Ginsberg: To that point, there's great cynicism now in the structures of our society and our government in believing what people say and trusting in our government.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Right.

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Mark Ginsberg: How is that cynicism reflected in young people's resistance almost to engage in the way that you're suggesting?

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Senator Ben Cardin: Well, Dr. Ginsberg, I think you have to go back to the challenges we have today, particularly for young people. They're looking at large debt because of college expenses. They're putting off getting married because they don't think they can afford it. They don't think that their standard of living will be better than their parents, and each generation, we expect our children to do better than we're doing. They don't have the resources to buy a home. They're frustrated and they're not sure that our system has really worked for their advantage. So, we have to recognize that. Then they get their information from very limited sources, through social media and through sources that are not really news sources. They're more sources that are trying to reinforce and persuade a point of view.

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Mark Ginsberg: Yeah, social media.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Right, social media. And then a more recent phenomenon is that the political forces are using misinformation intentionally. We call it disinformation. Conspiracy theories are promoted that leads to division and leads to violence. Democracy is also the substitute for violence, and if your democratic institutions aren't working well...

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Mark Ginsberg: Yeah, very good point.

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Senator Ben Cardin: It does lead to people getting hurt.

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Mark Ginsberg: Let's talk about the center a little bit. The center was just launched, had a wonderful event here at Towson University with the launch of the center, and then just recently, you held your first event. Talk a little bit about the event and what you're planning.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Right. So, the center is holding community events, and we invite the community to participate. You can go online at Towson and get information about the center's programming. We'll have another program in March and in June, and we invite the public to register and attend. Our first in a series that we're calling Democracy for the Future was on foreign policy, on what is the future of U.S. global engagement, and we were very fortunate to have Wendy Sherman.

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Mark Ginsberg: Right.

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Senator Ben Cardin: The former Deputy Secretary of State. The number two person in the State Department under the Biden administration.

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Mark Ginsberg: So impressive.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Yeah, and she served also under the Obama administration, under the Clinton administration. She served with five different secretaries of state and had some of the most difficult assignments in foreign policy, including negotiating with Iran on the nuclear agreement. She was incredibly impressive. What I really liked about Ambassador Sherman, first she wanted to meet with students, and had a session where the students had a chance to...

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Mark Ginsberg: Fabulous session, by the way.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Yeah, go one-on-one.

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Mark Ginsberg: Wasn't it great?

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Senator Ben Cardin: It was.

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Mark Ginsberg: Yeah.

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Senator Ben Cardin: They asked her good questions.

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Mark Ginsberg: They did. They did.

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Senator Ben Cardin: And she did a great job in response.

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Mark Ginsberg: They did.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Of course, then had a public session where, again, she was incredible in the way that she responded to questions. But it's a unique opportunity, and it goes two ways. The students and the public get to hear from a person that brings to life for students what they've learned in the classroom by the real experiences of the people who produced the history they're reading about. And the public has a chance to interact with people that they see in the news, but they don't get a chance to be up close and personal and ask questions to. So, it benefits, clearly, the students, it benefits the public, but it also benefits Wendy Sherman. She has a chance to give back. She wants to energize young people, particularly, on civic engagement. And her passion, she wants Towson University students to think about going into foreign service as part of their public service.

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Mark Ginsberg: Right.

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Senator Ben Cardin: And help this nation and help the world be a safer, more prosperous, more peaceful place.

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Mark Ginsberg: What a great model for that.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Yeah.

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Mark Ginsberg: What a great model she is. And there are future plans to have similar kinds of, not just speakers, but similar kinds of dialogues on campus.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Right. The next dialogue is scheduled for March, and it will be on public health. We have the challenges of vaccine policies and the future of public health, generally. And so, we're going to have a discussion, and it'll be on March 23rd. You'll be getting information. And then in June, we're going to take on a real challenge of information, on disinformation, on social media, on just the challenges that people have today to get objective information. And we'll see how that works with AI and with everything else that's going on these days.

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Mark Ginsberg: Fascinating times.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Yeah, I'm amazed about how many people use AI today.

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Mark Ginsberg: Yeah, it's truly amazing.

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Senator Ben Cardin: So, a lot of the news you're getting is AI generated. So, how accurate it is depends on the AI platform, or how biased it is depends on the AI platform.

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Mark Ginsberg: That's a really good point, that our information is more filtered now maybe than any time in our lifetime. Interesting, interesting. Well, with civic engagement, when we talk about that, you also, as I understand it, part of the center's mission is to foster conversation, to engage people from different points of view, to bring people together who may not disagree, but can agree that they aren't agreeing, but they agree to have respectful conversation.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Absolutely. We encourage that. We want to get different views. Our only requirement that people be respectful and that they listen to each other. We're not asking someone to give up their passion or their views but listen to what other people have to say, and maybe you'll learn something, and maybe we can get closer together and bridge the gap that's in our community that's too frequently dividing us. So, yes, we will be having individuals who will express different views on these subjects. We'll do that not only through these community events. I'm going to reach out to the students and talk to them directly. I want to hear from them what they would like to know, and what type of program they would like to have. We're also working with the already established institutions here at TU to encourage debate on subjects with different points of view in a respectful manner. So, yes, we'll be very much engaged in that.

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Mark Ginsberg: It sounds like an easy process, but we both know this is really complicated stuff, to engage people who are polarized or maybe there's a dialectic in their perspectives, but to ask them to come together and to speak with each other.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's challenging today. We have some of our leaders, not just here in the United States, but around the world that are extremely hurtful and divisive in the language they use, and it just encourages individuals who are biased to express hate, which further divides our community. So, we find out today that we have divided communities, divided families. A large number of people won't go out with someone who has a different political view than they do. That's wrong. We've got to be able to talk to each other.

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Mark Ginsberg: I'm curious to hear a little bit about your experience, both in the Senate and the House and the Maryland General Assembly, about how it is that you are able to work with people from both sides of the aisle, you are able to be considered one of the people in government who could talk with and have conversations with almost anybody.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Dr. Ginsberg, I'm proud of a lot of the things I was able to get done during my career.

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Mark Ginsberg: And you well should be, yes.

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Senator Ben Cardin: I could talk about during the COVID and getting help out to small businesses. We got over a trillion dollars of relief out in a matter of weeks. I could talk about efforts to establish standards globally for anti-corruption and good governance and the Magnitsky sanctions. I could talk about the incredible effort over 40 years to clean up the Chesapeake Bay, and how we've gotten partnerships with the federal government. Or I could talk about the fact that seniors today have preventive healthcare services that they now take for granted in early screening. That wasn't always the case. We had to get legislation passed that included the screenings for early detection of diseases. And I could talk about so many other issues. Pension changes that are still on the books today to allow small businesses to set up pension plans for their employees. In each one of those cases, I partnered with someone from the other side of the aisle, someone whose views were not the same as my views, and we were able to reach a sweet spot so we could move legislation forward. Now it's hard for me to admit this, but I really do think the solutions were better as a result of that consultation...

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Mark Ginsberg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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Senator Ben Cardin: ...that I learned from Republicans as to how to improve certain programs. I always remember that my friend, John McCain, a Republican of Arizona, worked with me on international human rights issues.

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Mark Ginsberg: Yeah, a great American.

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Senator Ben Cardin: And he really pushed me hard on anti-corruption and that we had to take away some of the discretion of the State Department because they were too conciliatory, too diplomatic to make the type of progress we wanted. And he was right, and we followed that path. When we did the aid to small businesses during COVID, the Republicans were very much interested in using the existing banking system. Democrats and I were very interested in getting community groups that could get the aid out because there's underbanked small businesses located in underbanked communities. They're not going to be able to get those funds. So, we compromised. We provided more money to community banks, but the main functions are through the larger banks. We compromised, we got it done, and we saved small businesses. So, the point is this – when you have these consultations, when you have these discussions, when you listen to each other and are willing to modify, not give up your principles, but are willing to modify to get results, you're not only going to get, in many cases, a better result, you're going to get a result that's going to stand the test of time. That's what we're trying to get back to. So, you asked me a question about division. Today in the United States Senate, it's not what it should be, but there are Democrat and Republican senators who are working together to try to solve problems. I was told when I first elected to Congress, "Find a Republican you can become a friend with so you can get legislation done."

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Mark Ginsberg: Ah-hah.

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Senator Ben Cardin: So, I reached out to a guy named Rob Portman.

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Mark Ginsberg: And you did, that's right.

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Senator Ben Cardin: The two of us became great friends, and he now has the center of the University of Cincinnati.

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Mark Ginsberg: He does. He does, right. And doing some interesting work parallel to what you're doing here at Towson.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Right. Exactly.

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Mark Ginsberg: Which is amazing. You just raised an interesting point that I wanted to see if you can reinforce for a little bit, that our elected leaders really are models. They're models for the country, and they're models for our young people. You yourself certainly are a model for our students here and for so many young people throughout our country. When models do the right thing, they're positive models, but then we have anti-models. There are those who are doing things that we don't necessarily want to emulate, and one of the concerns that I have, particularly when you look at government and the democratic process today, that we have certainly some outstanding models, but we also have some anti-models. And how does that affect, and there are risks associated with that, I think.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Well, there's a responsibility for leadership.

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Mark Ginsberg: There's a responsibility. That's a good way to describe it. Maybe that's what I'm talking about.

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Senator Ben Cardin: It's interesting. I was elected to the Maryland legislature when I was 22 years of age. I started serving when I was 23. I was a law student at the University of Maryland Law School when I was first elected. And I remember my father, the advice he gave to me, he said, "Ben, other people are now counting on you to represent them. You'll be surprised how quickly the time in elected office goes." Fifty-eight years went pretty quickly today.

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Mark Ginsberg: I can only imagine, yeah.

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Senator Ben Cardin: But his advice to me is recognize what you've been given and don't waste any time and do what's right. Always do what's right. And I think that's getting lost today. Sure, I wanted to win reelections and there's always considerations that you have to play in your political life, I recognize that, I'm not naive to it. But if you do what's right, you're going to look back and recognize the opportunities you had, you took advantage of those opportunities. And when I see elected officials that will get to the lowest level of trying to win points politically by criticizing their opponents, I think back again to John McCain and what John McCain said at that town hall meeting when this woman asked him a question about Barack Obama that was derogatory, that he wasn't a citizen of the United States. And John McCain came to Barack Obama's defense.

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Mark Ginsberg: Yes.

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Senator Ben Cardin: That's what I call basic decency. That's the type of leaders that we want to be United States senators, who will say what's right, even if it may not be the best political decision that you make.

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Mark Ginsberg: Well, on behalf of all of Maryland, thank you for being the leader that you have been and the servant to the public that you've been because it's a great honor to now have become friends and colleagues and to know everything that you've achieved. And let me ask you, we're beginning to run out of time, but I do want to ask you one more thing, and that is, as you think about both the center that you've established and the opportunities we have, but you think about the country more generally, when you think about the democracy that we have in the United States, what gives you the greatest hope?

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Senator Ben Cardin: Well, I do have hope. I think we all are required to have hope. It motivates us to do what we need to to make our community stronger and our nation better and our world safer. So, I do have hope, but I am very concerned the path that we're taking. I am very concerned about the damage done to our democratic institutions. I'm very concerned about America's strength globally to influence the world in which we live in. America's gift to the global community is the fact that we do our foreign policy based upon values. Think about the Marshall Plan after World War II or think about what we did with the PEPFAR program to end AIDS as we know it today.

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Mark Ginsberg: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

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Senator Ben Cardin: These are contributions that America has made to the global community. We were the leaders of the Trafficking in Persons Reports that try to end modern-day slavery, particularly for women. So, that's what we need to get back to, those values, those core values that made America the strong nation it is. But I am worried that we're moving in the wrong direction. So, what do you do about it? First, I think each one of us must help those people who are being hurt by these policies. I think about, in some cases, immigrants who have been mistreated.

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Mark Ginsberg: Yes. Yes.

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Senator Ben Cardin: We have to help. I think about what's happening on the research dollars, and people who are suffering today are not getting the help. We got to help. We got to help our universities because they're being under threat. So, we all have to do our share and contribute so that a university like Towson can continue its commitment. So, we all have to help those who have been victimized by these policies, and then we have to do our share through civic engagement to change the political climate in this country. Yes, it might be at the elections by our votes, but it's also in public opinion by influencing public opinion, and it's also by changing policy and working in our community through responsible civic engagement so that, in fact, our democracy will not only survive but thrive, and America, once again, will lead the free world in the promotion of our values.

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Mark Ginsberg: Well, let me conclude with one more quote because it's an important one. It's one that you've heard me use before, a John Dewey quote where John Dewey once said, "Democracy begins in conversation," and I want to thank you for facilitating conversations on our campus, facilitating conversations that I'm so confident and fully believe will have a consequential impact, not just here locally, but nationally and internationally. And also thank you for this conversation, which I really appreciate you taking time out of your day to spend time with me and to have this conversation about such important issues, which really are the bedrock of what our future as a society will be. So, Senator Ben Cardin, thank you so much.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Well, Dr. Ginsberg, thank you. I think what you're doing here at Towson will be a model for other universities and colleges around the country. We've already gotten inquiries from other communities around the nation.

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Mark Ginsberg: It's spreading quickly.

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Senator Ben Cardin: Yeah, one of my friends in Texas wants to set up a program like this at one of the universities in Texas.

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Mark Ginsberg: Isn't that great?

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Senator Ben Cardin: So, we're already getting attention from other parts, and we're going to work with centers around the nation. So, I think what's being done here at Towson will lead to a much stronger presence on college campuses around the nation to responsible civic engagement.

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Mark Ginsberg: Well, Senator Ben Cardin, thank you so much for what you're doing, what you've done over 58 years of public service, what you're doing today as you've been able to build on that experience in ways that very few people in this country would be able to do, and we are so honored to have you here at Towson University. Thank you for joining me today. And thank you for listening to On The Mark. We look forward to having you join us for a future conversation. And once again, thanks to Senator Ben Cardin for being my guest today on On The Mark. Thank you for listening to On The Mark. If you like what you've heard, please give us a follow or leave a review. It helps ensure that we can keep bringing you more candid conversations about the consequential impact of higher education. And if you have feedback about our podcast, feel free to send me a message at onthemark@towson.edu.

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[00:32:15]

Narrator: Founded in 1866, Towson University is a top-ranked, comprehensive public research university recognized as Maryland's number one public institution by the Wall Street Journal. As greater Baltimore's largest university, TU proudly serves as an engine of opportunity for nearly 20,000 students, the state of Maryland and beyond. Explore more than 190 top-ranked undergraduate and graduate degree programs and make our momentum yours at towson.edu.