00:00:00:13 - 00:00:10:17

Bryonna Sieck

The following is a Towson University podcast.

00:00:10:20 – 00:00:42:18

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

You're listening to Three Degrees, a podcast for people who are curious about the grad school experience. I'm your host, Steph Sundermann-Zinger, and in this episode, I spoke with three students who were all wrestling with the same issue. It was impacting their experiences both inside and outside the classroom and making grad school a lot harder to manage. This is Hailey. She loves animals, and as a child, she believed she could do anything.

00:00:42:21 - 00:01:26:01

Hailey

I used to collect toads in the summertime, and it would drive my mom crazy. Like, I would literally have, like, a bucket. And I'm, like, picking them up like it's Easter and she's like, go wash your hands right now. And like, I guess that's kind of the first thing.

But I think the earliest memory I have in third grade, my teacher was like, “oh, we are going to raise chickens in class.” Each day she would like unveil what it looked like inside the egg. And I thought that was so fascinating that I'm like, “oh, the chicken looks like this right now.” And I just I just remember being so intrigued by the whole thing.

00:01:26:05 - 00:01:33:09

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

The world was a magical place where anything was possible. And then things started to feel a little different.

00:01:33:11 - 00:02:36:14

Hailey

And so, in middle school, we took this sort of aptitude test where it was like, if you got a certain score, you would get put into higher level biology in high school. I didn't score high enough, but I knew that's like what I wanted to do.

And so, I asked my teacher. I was like, “I know I didn't score correctly, but can you let me take it like that's what I want to do?” She said, “no.” So me, a little 14-year-old, I went to my high school counselor, and I was like, “I want to take honors biology.” And she was like, “Oh, okay.”

And so, she put me in there. But I noticed that I did struggle a little bit. I felt like I was being put with all the gifted kids at that time. And by the time my senior year rolled around, and it was AP biology, I still felt like I, like just I just didn't really have a place there.

And I was like, well, I don't really know if this is the right path. And it sort of snowballed in my undergrad, and obviously I'm in grad school now, so it's gotten better. But yeah, definitely from a very early age, it started for me.

00:02:36:16 - 00:02:40:04

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

Really not a fan of your middle school teacher, got to say.

00:02:40:04 - 00:02:50:24

Hailey

I'll say though, I think that if she didn't say that, I don't think I would have been as driven or as passionate to do what I'm doing now.

00:02:50:27 - 00:03:28:15

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

What Hailey's talking about has a name. It's called imposter syndrome, and it's fairly common, especially among students. According to the International Honor Society in Psychology, imposter syndrome is defined as a psychological phenomenon in which an individual feels that their accomplishments or successes were not achieved by merit but instead achieved through chance or luck. They did a study about STEM majors and women, and discovered that STEM majors and women experience more imposter syndrome than non-STEM majors and men, and in fact, female STEM majors reported the highest average imposter syndrome score when compared to all other groups.

00:03:28:17 - 00:03:46:00

Hailey

I went to a large science institution and there were a lot of engineers, so there were chemical engineers in my classes, like biology majors and of the like. So, there's a huge array of people, and I often felt like, you know, I had these ideas and they'd be like, “no, no, no, no.”

And I'm like, “okay.” And then five minutes later they would come up with the same thing. So, I really felt like at the beginning I wasn't being listened to. And I never thought that, like I thought that society had progressed enough to where, like, we could just stop being a little bit like sexist or have microaggressions in science, but unfortunately, that's not the case.

When I was doing research, I didn't feel like I was involved enough or as smart as them to be doing research. And so, I kind of thought, you know, is that - is that for me? Am I smart enough to be doing research? Am I organized enough to be doing research? Okay. And in biology labs, specifically molecular labs, they are like writing math.

They're like quickly doing math. And they know all these procedures and all these terms. And it felt like they knew all these things right away. And I felt like everybody else was a faster learner than I was as far as methods and math and statistics. And I just I just wasn't there. I just was not there. And I just yeah, I just couldn't relate to that at all.

00:04:56:29 - 00:05:02:25

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

Haley's feelings of insecurity led her to take a gap year between undergraduate and graduate study.

00:05:02:28 - 00:05:27:06

Hailey

In my gap year, I worked in environmental education. I worked at a zoo, and I worked at a for county conservation board in Iowa. And I felt like, yeah, I do have a place in the space of conservation and science and, you know, education.

And it really propelled me to be like, okay, now it's time for me to seek out grad school opportunities.

00:05:27:09 - 00:05:34:22

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

Haley was accepted into the biology master's program at Towson University, and right away she started pursuing her passion for research.

00:05:34:24 - 00:06:01:29

Hailey

When I was looking for, master’s projects here, research projects, I found my advisor. He was like, “We’re going to do the microbiome of northern map turtles.”

And I was like, “That sounds cool.” So, right now I'm sort of reaching the end of my thesis project, actually. But we are looking at the microbes that live on the northern map turtle. And in the northern map turtle, the hypothesis is kind of like…

00:06:01:29 - 00:06:09:13

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

Haley isn't feeling as much imposter syndrome these days. She's pretty happy. And when imposter syndrome does pop up, she's found some ways to cope.

00:06:09:19 - 00:06:42:29

Hailey

Imposter syndrome. It'll get quieter if you let it. And you have to surround yourself with people that are going through the same thing that can relate to you on, you know, do I have a place in scientific research? Do I have a place in grad school at all? Do I have a place in my community? Like, yes, you need to build your you know, you need to have your circle.

So I think, you know, it comes back to this. You need to be open about it and you need to recognize, like you are in the position, like you are in grad school for a reason.

00:06:43:02 - 00:07:05:12

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

That's great advice. But what happens when imposter syndrome strikes outside the classroom? We spoke with Ash, a student in TU’s psychology program, about experiencing imposter syndrome while working through an internship.

And this was a big problem because in this particular internship role, they were providing counseling services to real clients.

00:07:05:15 - 00:08:04:27

Ash

So this was my first day at my practicum site. Other times in the program, we have like, practice clients. They're real people. But they're usually with, like, lighter issues, like, I’m disagreeing with my roommate or I'm stressed about this test coming up. It's not anything too deep or too serious. And my first session with my client was talking about just major depressive disorder, where they can't get up, they can't eat.

They feel like they're nothing. And that's much heavier than I'm scared for my PSYC101 test, right? So in that space, I just felt like, God, and I'm supposed to do something about this? And eventually, yeah, because I had to. Because there's another person in a room with me. What am I - what am I going to say?

00:08:05:03 - 00:08:21:26

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

Ash's experience is not uncommon. A quick Google search will bring up dozens of articles geared toward helping therapists overcome imposter syndrome during conversations with clients. And after struggling through some sessions while managing imposter syndrome. Ash eventually found their way through to the other side.

00:08:21:26 - 00:08:28:09

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

What tips would you give to other students, or really anyone, to deal with their own feelings of imposter syndrome?

00:08:28:12 - 00:09:04:18

Ash

It's so hard to do it by yourself in thinking like I'm alone in this feeling, but you don't have to sit with it by yourself, and you're not alone in this feeling. And actually facing it. Talking about it. Either with professors, with peers, with family, with friends. That's how you can fight it. Like nobody said that I can't do this.

The only person who's saying that is me or this part of me, that is the imposter syndrome. And of course, it's saying, “I can't do this.” That's this whole job, right?

00:09:04:21 - 00:09:46:28

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

In some ways, Ash’s psychology background helped them cope with imposter syndrome when it came up for them. But what happens when your imposter syndrome is triggered by really putting yourself out there, and putting yourself out there is your work? The creative industry is a hotbed for imposter syndrome. People like Viola Davis, Maya Angelou, Jodie Foster, Tom Hanks and Meryl Streep have all spoken openly about their struggles with it.

And it makes sense. Whether you're auditioning for a role, sending a demo album to a record label, or submitting your work for publication, criticism and rejection are baked into the process. We spoke with Liz, a student in the professional writing program, about her struggles with imposter syndrome as a poet.

00:09:47:00 - 00:10:52:11

Liz

I had an experience once when I first started writing poetry. I think I was in my early 20s, and I showed it to my older brother and he was like, “you're writing about these super serious things and I can't take you seriously because you're my little sister.” And so that was one that I internalized for a long time.

I can't say for sure what my brother meant, but it was definitely something that made it harder for me. It kind of fed into those insecurities that were already there, and so it took me a long time to trust other people with my work, especially when it came to my creative endeavors. It's a little bit more subjective. Who is going to know like this is a perfect short story?

This is a perfect poem? Like it's very, very subjective. And so when I started leaning into that more, I ran up against that, against that feeling of how am I going to measure myself in this field?

00:10:52:13 - 00:11:01:14

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

I would suspect that the more successful you are in a creative industry, the harder it is to believe that you're actually any good.

00:11:01:16 - 00:11:28:13

Liz

There's definitely that. There's also like, there's the fear for me of - there's the fear of failure, but there's also the fear of success. Because when I do succeed, what if I can't maintain that? What I'm getting in my head about not being good enough, I'll be like, “well, here are some of your successes. Like you can't overlook this. You can't keep moving the goalpost.”

00:11:28:16 - 00:11:31:27

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

Do you feel comfortable calling yourself a poet?

00:11:31:29 - 00:12:30:29

Liz

I have become comfortable with calling myself a poet. I wasn't always there for a long time. I was like, “well, that that's so pretentious. Like you, you can't call yourself” - not that it's pretentious to call yourself a poet, but it felt pretentious for me to call myself a poet. As I've worked harder and done more, I'm like, “Yeah, I am a poet.” One of my biggest struggles is that, like, I can feel myself getting better. I can feel myself growing more confident, loving my work more and just being happier in what I'm doing. But then there are the days where I do hate myself. I do hate what I'm doing, and I keep saying, “I'm tired of getting better. I wish I just was better,” but I know that the more that I write, the more that I practice. I feel the confidence growing in what I'm doing.

00:12:31:01 - 00:12:34:23

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

Well, you were kind enough to share some of your creative work with us. It's very beautiful.

00:12:34:25 - 00:12:35:27

Liz

Well, thank you.

00:12:36:00 - 00:12:39:01

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

And, I'd love it if you wanted to read a piece on the show.

00:12:39:01 - 00:13:50:13

Liz

Sure I can. I have one with me here. For some context, my mother sang, the song “Wild Thing” by the Troggs to me growing up, and she always called me her wild thing. So the poem is a letter, sent to “wild thing,” who is my child self.

So it starts, Wild Thing, I used to write my sins on rice paper with a brush made for my eyelashes, and dipped in my morning tea. All this to say that I would eat the paper at the end of the day. I didn't want God to see he who molds his mercy from clay in crinoline, sculpted fabric folds dry-brushed with shame and false promises. I would press my face against that earthen veil like a child would press their face to the glass of a candy shop. But time refracts more than glass. You look so different through its mercury waves. But I will never stop reaching for you, if only to brush your hair out of your eyes.

00:13:50:15 - 00:13:59:13

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

That's beautiful. Thank you for reading that. Yeah. Thank you. What would you tell another student who was experiencing something similar, especially in a creative space?

00:13:59:16 - 00:15:11:07

Liz

Find the small things that you like in your work, the little instances that you're really proud of.

This is something that my advisor told me. I because I talked to her about it. I was like, “I feel like I need my poems to be perfect and that sometimes stops them from existing.” And she passed on to me a story that one of her advisors told her, which was the myth of Proteus.

I'm not sure - I think it was Odysseus where he had to get information out of Proteus. So he was told that he had to find him and hold on to him. And if he held onto him long enough, he would speak the truth. And during that process, he would shapeshift into different animals. I think he shapeshifted it into smoke at one point. And all these different things, and you had to hold on to him, until he turned back into himself.

And then he would tell you something true, and she was like, “We are not trying to write something perfect. We were trying to hold on to our poems long enough until they tell the truth.”

00:15:11:09 - 00:15:11:27

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

That's cool.

00:15:12:00 - 00:15:15:20

Liz

And I was like, “This is something that I am holding onto forever now.”

00:15:15:20 - 00:15:17:02

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

Yeah.

00:15:17:05 - 00:15:27:17

Liz

This is anytime I run into my perfectionism I'm like, “I'm not trying to write something perfect. I'm trying to write something true.”

00:15:27:19 - 00:15:58:12

Stephanie Sundermann-Zinger

If you're listening to this right now and thinking, “wow, I think I have imposter syndrome too,” know that you're not alone - and I hope some of the tips shared by our guests can help bring you to the other side. I'm your host, Steph Sundermann-Zinger, and you've been listening to Three Degrees, a podcast produced out of Towson University by myself and my co-producer and sound engineer, Bryonna Seick.

00:15:58:15 - 00:16:25:27

Bryonna Sieck

Founded in 1866, Towson University is a top ranked comprehensive public research university recognized as Maryland's number one public institution by the Wall Street Journal. As Greater Baltimore's largest university TU proudly serves as an engine of opportunity for nearly 20,000 students, the state of Maryland and beyond explore more than 190 top-ranked undergraduate and graduate degree programs and make our momentum yours at Towson.edu